"Honest" Thieves

I agree with what’s been said, so far. The characters speaking are using the word in its correct form but the perception of the audience/reader is different because we know things that the characters don’t know. I think it’s interesting that the word honest is used to describe people who have stolen or will steal something. De Flores has stolen Tomazo’s brother from him by murdering Alonzo. Diaphanta will “steal” something from Beatrice-Joanna, her wedding night. I’m not entirely sure, though, that it can be called stealing with Diaphanta and Beatrice since it’s all Beatrice’s idea. Either way, Diaphanta will end up with something that she should not have.

Being Honest With Themselves

The word "honest" seems to be used in a sarcastic and ironic way. Obviously the characters mean them the way they are intended to be interpreted, but as an audience we see them as being foolish for actually believing De Flores and Diaphanta are honest individuals. Tomazo seems to be blind to De Flores, his actions, and his intentions. Beatrice believes that just because Diaphanta has proven to be a honest, in the sense that she is a virgin, she does not have honest intentions and cannot be trusted. This makes me think that perhaps Tomaza and Beatrice should look at being honest with themselves. They need to open their eyes and come to their senses of what is really going on around them.

Throw Out Your Dictionary

I've always seen the word "honest" used for many different purposes, but these lines seemed to make me laugh the most. Mainly the word was used for its intended meaning for the person speaking them, but it meant something totally different for those who were being described. Tomazo calls De Flores honest and we all know that definitely is not the case for the extremely, creepy murderer. As for Diaphanta, I doubt that Beatrice would call her honest if she knew that Diaphanta's beau was ratting her out for sleeping with the "honest" De Flores. Given Diaphanta is truthful that she is still a virgin, I doubt Diaphanta has any reservations if she were given the chance to, as they say, "get it on." Basically, they have all just twisted the word honest into something dishonest.

And now we're stuck together...

I'm basically one the same track as everyone else, De Flores manipulated and tricked Beatrice, and now she'll have no choice but to do his bidding. DeFlores shows his true stripes in this line, I was on the line that Beatrice had him in the palm of her hand but instead it's vise versa. Irony dictates that she who once degraded and insulted him, not has to pay for it by becoming his slave. He's rather brilliant for it, basically saying that he has nothing to lose compared to her, who will lose everything. The idea that they are one in the same is in this same vein, she thought she tricked him, but it was she who was tricked. The odd thing is: De Flores can call her his "equal"(133), and then 4 lines later call her his slave. That's some clever wordplay right there...

(One last note, how good of a sitcom would this make?)

Beatrice as the Changeling

I agree with Lauren; Deflores has brought Beatrice down to his level, just as he was denigrated to a position as servant even though he was born a nobleman. And I agree with what Graham said; by asking Deflores to do this ill favor of murdering her fiance, Beatrice has lost her advantage over him, and now she is forced to do whatever he wants. But seriously, how could she have not seen this coming? Did she really think Deflores would be placated by money alone? Laura is also right in saying that Beatrice probably will be unable to untie herself from Deflores's grasp, and ultimately, she will have to succumb to his will, however perverted it may be. I must say, when I first read the passage, the first thing I thought of was what Kara said: the language in this passage makes it seem as though Beatrice has already lost her virginity to Deflores. The last line, "And made you one with me," is presenting an image of two bodies combined together as one, just like in a sexual act. In the line, "you lost your first condition," the thing that first comes to mind is a loss of virginity. There are a few definitions of the word "changeling":

1. One given to change; a fickle or inconstant person; a waverer, turncoat, renegade.
2. A person or thing (surreptitiously) put in exchange for another.
3. A child secretly exchanged for another.

In this passage, it seems that the second definition is most applicable, although the third definition also fits. As Deflores said, Beatrice has lost her innocence, her inner "child," and exchanged it for the corrupted person she has become. It appears that Beatrice is the changeling in this play.

Play with fire, and you will get burnt

I definitely agree with what everyone has said thus far. De Flores was incredibly wise in accepting to murder Alonzo in order to force Beatrice to his wishes. Although for a second it seemed that Beatrice was manipulating De Flores into comitting this act in Act 2, De Flores obviously had the upper hand throughout the entire thing. He knew that it was the perfect opportunity to make his fantasies a reality and took it. The roles have switched and Beatrice is now the inferior, being manipulated to do as De Flores wishes. The greatest example is the fact that after killing Alonzo, he claims that his conscience is guilt-free (III.iv.19-20), yet he mentions his conscience over and over to Beatrice when she tries to pay him. Beatrice is very likely to fall into this, even more so that he will not reveal what really happened or perhaps even kill Alsemero since he literally threatens that if he cannot have her, neither will Alsemero (III.iv.145-147). I also completely agree with Kara in that although Beatrice and De Flores have not literally had sex, they have done so figuratively through Alonzo's murder. This, along with the manipulation going on, can only mean that they will indeed have sex later on, as repugnant as it may or may not be to Beatrice at that point. She is essentially tied to him and I highly doubt that she will ever be able to get away from him to fulfill her "dreams" of being with Alsemero.

I also find it interesting that De Flores calls her a whore and says that she lost her virginity the moment she laid eyes on Alsemero while being engaged to Alonzo (III.iv.142-144). I guess this is yet another way for him to tell her that she has absolutely no right to claim innocence or honor because once a whore in thoughts, she is a whore in every extent of the word -- she is a "whore at heart."

Sounds to me like she's already been De Flores'd

I agree with Lauren. In this passage, De Flores is essentially telling Beatrice that she's now on his level--"You must forget your parentage to me," "made you one with me." However, I feel as though the language here implies that there might be something more at work. It appears as though Beatrice has already, metaphorically speaking, been 'deflowered' -- she's lost her virginity by being an accomplice in the act of murder. As De Flores states "A woman dipped in blood, and talk of modesty?" (III.iv.126). Blood within the context of sex usually indicates a loss of virginity. In this case, Beatrice is 'stained' with blood and has become "one with [De Flores]," indicating, at least in my interpretation, that she's already had sex with him (at least, figuratively speaking). In addition, De Flores says her "peace and innocency" have "turned" on her, indicating a loss of these qualities--two characteristics commonly associated with virgins. The imagery, in this case, seems to allude to the possibility of some sort of sexual interaction on a physical level in the near future.

The Upper Hand

Although I hate to say it, De Flores obviously has the upper-hand in this situation. De Flores is completely right in arguing the idea that Beatrice and him are now equals. However, I think that because De Flores is now trying to bargain his act for sexual favors, he has lost even more credibility. Beatrice did put De Flores up to this act, thereby making her on the same playing field. But this is where De Flores' argument ends--if he wants to retain this idea of self-pride then he needs to quit while he's ahead. On the other hand, Beatrice naturally believes that De Flores has done this for financial reward, but can she really be this naive? I mean she had to have known that a man with this type of physical deformity is willingly waiting by her side in order to retrieve some sort of "favor." There is no question after rereading this passage that De Flores is a smart and cunning man. He has forced Beatrice into a position that she can not get out of. I can only imagine that she will give in to his sexual desires in the future...

De Flores' reasoning

In this passage, De Flores explains to Beatrice that they are now equals. Beatrice is no longer superior to De Flores due to her part in the murder. Therefore, according to De Flores, Beatrice has no authority over claiming her innocence and honor. She isn't "innocent" any more and it's ironic for her to try to guard her modesty when she is still "dipped in blood". The murder now defines her because (to De Flores) she has lost her rank. To him, since they are now equals and she longer has superiority, they deserve each other; they have no boundaries to separate them. De Flores at one time was a gentleman lowered in position, and now he has the power to do the same to Beatrice. Although he views himself and Beatrice as complete equals ("and made you one with me") it appears as if De Flores holds the power. He will atempt manipulate and control Beatrice by blackmail into sexual acts that will degrade and humiliate her. He is already trying to take over her body and reputation. Beatrice may become defined by the murder and the consequences and lose power over her self.

You must be Sure...

I think that Beatrice is telling Alsemero to slow down and check himself to be sure that he is seeing what he thinks he is seeing. It is a good contrast to the other plays, in my opinion, because people seem to always jump on the "love train" without taking anytime to think and then they suffer the consequences. They just see someone and, instantly, they are head-over-heels in love. Beatrice says that though your eyes are suppose to guard your heart, they sometimes jump to conclusions and make you see things that are not really there. But, when you let your judgement take control, it can correct your vision and help you to see things as they really are. I think she is really trying to protect herself from being in an unfavorable situation.

The Sentinels Need Sentinels

The use of the word sentinel is interesting here. The eyes are supposed to stand as sentinels, guarding or watching over our judgments, yet in Beatrice's lines they also give judgments, and mistaken, false ones at that. It's as if the eyes, the sentinels, need sentinels themselves because they are easily infiltrated and deceived. This contradiction reminds me of Deflores, who is supposed to serve and in a manner watch over Beatrice, yet is a suitor who loves her. Indeed, like the mistaken eyes who need something to check them, the servant and guardian figure Deflores requires someone to check him. All this seems to emphasize deception, which fits in with the title of the play and the actions Deflores and Antonio in Act I.

Guard Your Heart

I agree with Anna's comment that this passage is the voice of a play's self-awareness, but I think there may be other ways to interpret Beatrice's words. Just before this, Alsmero confesses his love for Beatrice, explaining that he has done everything he could to express his love for her, but he would gladly do it again. Beatrice's response to this is that he should guard his heart, for the eyes see what they want to see at times, and they do not necessarily discern the truth. Beatrice is not shunning Alsmero, but she wishes for him to be more cautious in his expression of love for her. From the moment that Beatrice first comes on stage, we know that she is a very passionate woman who can easily express herself, and she could easily repeat a confession of love to Alsmero, but instead she asks to be more careful in his words. He may be madly in love with Beatrice, but he could also be blinded by what he hopes to see in his future wife. Beatrice's ability to remain passionate but guarded is a characteristic that the other characters of the play should also employ.

More Meta Moments

I think this speech from Beatrice in the first scene falls into that category of comments made from a place where the play we are reading is very aware that it is a play we have often commented on in class. Here, Beatrice's warning to Alsemero is really all but a reminder to the audience not to take everything they are seeing and will soon see performed at face value. I feel Beatrice here is warning the audience that to be fully participating observers, capable of getting the most from their theatre-going experience, they must not be content to just sit back and passively watch the action going on onstage. Her reasoning is that if they do, they will be easily led astray by the outward appearance of things and when they finally do allow their judgements a word in edgewise, they will see that they have all been fooled by the "common" devices of the theatre. I think that it is very interesting that such an appeal to the audience's shreweder thinking is being done here by a woman. I do not think that it is a terrible stretch to look at this play, following around forty years after The Duchess of Malfi, as continuing the trend found in Webster's work: namely that of there being room for strong, intelligent female roles in Renaissance drama where there previously were few to none.